Law 9.B Conversion Kick

[Bryan]

I thought I got this right during the match, but now I'm annoyed as there's no clear ruling in the law-book so needed help from the wordsmiths:

At a conversion kick, after the kicker has begun his approach, the ball blows off the tee and rolls several meters further towards the goal line (both infield and along in line where the ball was grounded).

The fly-half runs after the ball, picks it up, and slots a beauty of a drop-goal through the uprights...which I disallow.

9.B.1.b states that

"The kick is taken on a line through the place where the try was scored."

It doesn't explicitly states what happens if this doesn't occur.

Was I right???

 

[OB..]

He has not complied with the requirements in the law, so how can you allow the kick?

 

[PaulDG]

He has not complied with the requirements in the law, so how can you allow the kick?

I don't understand where the non compliance is..?

Law 9 allows the kick to be a drop-kick. It was.

Law 9 allows the kick anywhere along the line where the try was scored. As I read the description of the scenario, (though it's not completely clear) it was.

What's wrong with that kick?

(Unless the description means the ball has not stayed on the line of the try and hence the kick was not taken in line with the try.)

 

[Dixie]

What's wrong with that kick?

(Unless the description means the ball has not stayed on the line of the try and hence the kick was not taken in line with the try.)

I think that was exactly the point.

 

[chopper15]

I think that was exactly the point.

At a conversion kick, after the kicker has begun his approach, the ball blows off the tee and rolls several meters further towards the goal line (both infield and along in line where the ball was grounded).



Bryan did mention it Dixie!

What a gem of a query! But he should've allowed it, surely?

It's the sort of question I wish I had thought of!

But, no doubt, somebody will shoot it down . . . as always!

 

[Phil E]

I think the answer to your question is in Law 9.B.2.(c) Althought the bold part could be read two ways (punctuation required?) i.e

Version 1: If the ball falls over and rolls away from the line (add a "but"?) through the place where the try was scored, (i.e. along the line?) and the kicker then kicks the ball over the cross bar, a goal is scored (your ball didn't roll along the line).

Version 2: If the ball falls over and rolls away from the line through the place where the try was scored, (away from the line in any direction?) and the kicker then kicks the ball over the cross bar, a goal is scored (your ball didnt roll along the line, but did roll away from the line).

Personal opinion (and only after reading the laws) is that the goal should have been allowed to stand. The way I read it, if the ball falls over after he starts his run up, he has the option to pick up the ball and attempt a drop goal. As soon as he starts his run up the opposition can charge, making the drop goal attempt harder.

9.B.2 THE KICKER’S TEAM
(c) If the ball falls over before the kicker begins the approach to kick,
the referee permits the kicker to replace it without excessive delay.
While the ball is replaced, the opponents must stay behind their
goal line.
If the ball falls over after the kicker begins the approach to kick, the
kicker may then kick or attempt a dropped goal.
If the ball falls over and rolls away from the line through the place
where the try was scored, and the kicker then kicks the ball over
the cross bar, a goal is scored.
If the ball falls over and rolls into touch after the kicker begins the
approach to kick, the kick is disallowed.
Penalty: (a)-(c) If the kicker’s team infringes, the kick is
disallowed.

 

[OB..]

I have changed my mind. I think Phil_E is correct.

 

[Phil E]

I have changed my mind. I think Phil_E is correct.

:wow: <SWOON>

 

[KML1]

Think if we're talking about a few cm's I ait got a prob. If he picks up the fallen ball, runs 15m towards the centre of the posts and the DK's it, we got another situation altogether!

 

[chopper15]

Think if we're talking about a few cm's I ait got a prob. If he picks up the fallen ball, runs 15m towards the centre of the posts and the DK's it, we got another situation altogether!

Yes, Keith, he'd probably be tackled!

But, had he been successful it would have to stand. The problem with this discussion is sorting out the contradictory laws;

9.B.1(b) The kick is taken on a line through the place where the try was
scored.

Could it mean 'located' on a line? The following two paras apparently confirm that it is referring to the placement of the ball not the actual execution.!

9.B.2 If the ball falls over after the kicker begins the approach to kick, the
kicker may then kick or attempt a dropped goal.

Then follows positive confirmation that even if it is fly-kicked or dropped kicked away from the line-thro' it's a conversion . . .

If the ball falls over and rolls away from the line through the place
where the try was scored, and the kicker then kicks the ball over
the cross bar, a goal is scored.

 

[Bryan]

The ambiguity lies in the point that all we are told is:

i. The kicker can kick it off a tee, ground, or drop-kick it
ii. The ball must be in line with where it was grounded over the try-line.

KML, my scenario lies between the two points you made. He was definitely a few meters closer (he ran to chase the ball, picked it up, took a step and kicked it).

He didn't comply with 9.B.1.b, but nowhere in Law does it say the consequences of these actions.

The hardest part is that:
a) it was a beauty of a kick. It cleared well-past the crossbar and sailed through the middle of the posts
b) Both my TJs stuck their flags up to award the conversion, and then I waved it off, so the optics looked terrible.

I still don't think I could allow it under Law, but once again the Law is ambiguous.

 

[chopper15]

It's a bona fide conversion, Bryan!!!

 

[Phil E]

I still don't think I could allow it under Law, but once again the Law is ambiguous.

Bryan, I dont think its ambiguous at all.

The law you keep refering to (9.B.1) is for taking the kick in the conventional manner.

It does not cover what happens if the ball falls off the tee, this is covered quite clearly in 9.B.2 and is applicable to your situation.

Since 9.B.2 makes no mention of how far the ball travels if it falls off the tee (only what happens if it rolls into touch), the distance is immaterial.

This will keep the defence on their toes, since they might have a good chance of stopping the conversion if KML's scenario comes into force. If they all stand in a huddle ignoring the kick, then they might miss out on preventing 2 points. Their choice.

 

[PaulDG]

KML, my scenario lies between the two points you made. He was definitely a few meters closer (he ran to chase the ball, picked it up, took a step and kicked it).

That's OK. He's allowed to put the ball on the goal line if he wants - it'll just be a heck of a lot harder to kick it from there.

I still don't think I could allow it under Law, but once again the Law is ambiguous.

I can't see the ambiguity in the Law (though I believe your original description is ambiguous).

If the ball is along the line of the try (or close enough to it to make no material difference at the level of the match) then the kick is valid.

If the ball has wandered a material distance from the line of the try then the kick isn't valid.

(Your original description isn't clear about if the ball has wandered from the line of the try. I read it as not having wandered. OB originally read it as having wandered (I think).)

 

[ex-lucy]

Bryan was it a 1pt ball game?

 

[OB..]

A general principle of statutory interpretation is that the particular over-rides the general.

9.B.2 (c) specifically caters for the case where the ball "rolls away from the line through the place where the try was scored".

Unless the kicker tries to significantly improve the place he kicks from, I think the conversion must be allowed.

I am not too bothered by the lack of "sanction". The law prescribes the conditions necessary for a successful kick. If they are not met, the kick is obviously not successful.

 

[Phil E]

If the ball has wandered a material distance from the line of the try then the kick isn't valid.

Where does it say that in Law? It actually states the opposite.

If the ball falls over and rolls away from the line through the place where the try was scored, and the kicker then kicks the ball over the cross bar, a goal is scored.

 

[chopper15]

So, reading between the lines, I can now brief my fellow terrace refs, that;

(i) 9B.1(b) probably refers to ball 'placement'.

(ii) 9B.2 confirms that after falling off the tee in any direction it can be fly-kicked or drop-kicked away from the line-thro' if needs be.

In fact, if my summary is acceptable, what's to stop the kicker from picking up the toppled ball, and if far enough out, run in-field from the touch-line for the drop?

 

[KML1]

Chopper - I would say that common sense and the "spirit of the game" does. 9B.1 (b) for me, shows what the lawmakers had in mind - a conversion in line with where the try was scored.

If the original scenario takes place the kicker needs to be somewhere close to the line. A ball falling off the tee is not going to go far so the line ain't going far either.

Moving in-filed is definately not what the law makers had in mind and would go against the Principles section of the IRB Playing Charter (p4 of the printed book) which says:

Rugby owes much of its appeal to the fact that it is played both to
the letter and within the spirit of the laws.

I'd be more than happy to argue that one from my view in any clubhouse! when disallowing a conversion and having him re-take it.

 

[OB..]

In fact, if my summary is acceptable, what's to stop the kicker from picking up the toppled ball, and if far enough out, run in-field from the touch-line for the drop?

Law 10.4 (k)