Big v Small Front Rows

[Donal1988]

OK an issue that normally arises at lower levels and underage but its a problem that has annoyed me greatly at various times in last year.

Neither Team A nor Team B are very skillful. We willl say its an U15 game for example. Now Team A has big lads in front row. Team B has smaller front row but equally trained and experienced. At the 'engage' call when they come together Team B is always knocked about half a metre or maybe little more back at the scrum. The scrum holds up well enough but I initially kept whistling for driving before ball was in.

Then I copped on that it was simply the size and the engage that was knocking them back. I called captain and asked them to hit less hard. They did this and then drove the 1.5m which was acceptable (U19 variation).

Anyway was it fair to tell the team to hit less hard? Was it pedantic to award a freekick initially? Advice would be welcome.

 

[ex-lucy]

Anyway was it fair to tell the team to hit less hard?

yes - safety is number one on list of things to consider....

Was it pedantic to award a freekick initially? Advice would be welcome.

yes. I would have blown quickly and reset and requested bigger FR to engage carefully. If they didnt listen and respond then FK.
twice would mean a chat with skipper and/ or coach.
thrice .. action.

 

[Donal1988]

Cheers Lucy. Well I didnt actually cop on until a few scrums later. For first 2 I thought that the big lads were simply pushing before ball was in.

 

[Wert Twacky]

Hi Donal,

Great question - as someone that never went anywhere near the front row as a player, I'm always interested to learn the finer points and this is one of those situations where when you know of the management tools and the reasoning behind what the FRs are looking to acheive, you will be far more confident in your management and gain credibility with the players.

I'm a great believer in keeping things simple and that goes with FR play.
IMO - both sides want to win the engage - they want the upperhand.
But, often, one side will have more power in the contest for the hit, and therefore the other team will have to absorb that initial impact by going back a step, etc.

If the scrum is then stationary after the "hit" (albeit it's moved backwards a step) I would play on, but at the next scrum tell the side who are less dominent at they must "take the hit and hold".

It's always worth recognising the dominent pack as early as you can and then having a word with them early doors along the lines of "happy for you to dominate at the scrum, but don't destroy. Keep things legal and you'll be rewarded."


It works for me and it worked well on Saturday.

 

[Donal1988]

And if that side cant take the hit - I reset scrum? If it becomes a habit do I talk to weak team about keeping feet or strong team about too strong a shove.

 

[Wert Twacky]

It's about finding a balance Donal.

The weaker team have a responsibilty to take the hit, while the stronger team's responsibility lies in the fact that if they do not excersise self control, then you may take the scrum option away and go uncontested if safety is an issue.

Most props I know would hate the idea of their weekly bun fight being taken away (back me up ex-Lucy)

You are right, thou, if the first scrum goes down, etc, as a result of the weaker team not being able to take the hit, you must err on the side of safety and reset - that's when you need to make both FRs aware of your observations...

Now you've experienced it once, the next time it happens you'll recognise it earlier and then manage it.

But don't forget to make sure the engagement sequence is controlled by you, and not the FRs.

 

[Donal1988]

I actually experience it a year ago. I followed steps I outlined in original post and since then I have progressed a bit and there isnt really such mismatch. But ive been out of Ireland for 6 months. I am coming back Saturday. Sunday I am being assessed at a youth game to see how I have done in all that time.

At youth level this was a problem and thats some good advice. Preventative refereeing rather than punitive refereeing would be your advice.

 

[OB..]

I saw this at an U18 game before Christmas. One team's props were 6 foot, the others 5' 6". This caused problems during the CTPE. If they were close enough for the shorties to Touch, then the Biggies were having to bend to avoid engaging too early. If they were further away, the shorties could not Touch.

The referee explained to both sides the problem as he saw it and asked them to manage the hit sensibly. They did, and the scrums were remarkably stable, even though the Biggies could always push the 1.5 metres.

 

[Wert Twacky]

I was a TJ at a school boys international where Canada were playing France. The Canadian tighthead was 6ft and very well-conditioned - a big fella compared to his French lucy.

We were correct in our assumptions that there may be an issue, but it was not what we thought...

The French lucy was so technically superior he had the Canadian lad in knots - all his Christmases had come early!!

Turns out the Canadian fella had played rugby less than six months, and was a wrestling champ back home.

Therein lies a lesson I think the Canadian selectors learnt all too well!!

Here's to small, but compact props

 

[ex-lucy]

Most props I know would hate the idea of their weekly bun fight being taken away (back me up ex-Lucy)

yes. very much so ...

i played for my club 2s on Sat ... against a 35 stone thp ... I stuffed him. he didnt what to do next.
I pulled him on: FK to me for him pushing too early.
I bore in on him. Pen to me for him popping his head up.
I lifted him up on his toes, pen to me bec he stood up.
i pushed him back and round, pen to me for him breaking up.

i suppose the point is beware that size doesnt mean anything in teh senior game but it does in the youth game.
Safety is first.
But ask ...
When reffing a situation like that, i will ask the prop who looks undre pressure or looks smaller at he next line out "are you ok in the scrum?"
if it does go silly then ask the bigger guy to ease up
if he doesnt say you will use the sanction/threat of uncontested scrums
he wont like this ..
interestingly the ref on Sat (who i know well) said he was thinking of carding the thp for repeat offences but thought that he didnt want to ruin my fun and it didntr affect the result....
12-1 in the FR
55-5 on the scoresheet ... bleeding backs

 

[andyscott]

As a previous loose head, I usually spot the offender as I have used most of the tactics

Andy

 

[didds]

I saw this at an U18 game before Christmas. One team's props were 6 foot, the others 5' 6". This caused problems during the CTPE. If they were close enough for the shorties to Touch, then the Biggies were having to bend to avoid engaging too early. If they were further away, the shorties could not Touch.

[/QUOTE

good expereince though for the biggies to learn despite their size advantage they will need to be able to get more flexible and get lower.

Shades of SA v Lions 1997.

didds

 

[The umpire]

As a previous loose head, I usually spot the offender as I have used most of the tactics

Andy

As a previous big girl's blouse, I hardly ever spot the offender.

 

[Dixie]

As a similar article of clothing, I rarely even spot the offence! Had a chat with Blue prop after Saturday's game, and expressed mild delight that the FRs had been so well behaved all game - we didn't have a single collapse. He told me that was because he was having such fun boring in to good effect, it seemed pointless even to try to change his nefarious tactics!

 

[andyscott]

I ping boring in at least once a game for each prop. Just look at their body positions prior to engagement, especially their shoulders. If one is hidden under the hookers shoulders (armpits), guarantee he wont go in straight Its impossible, if you bind like this (very common in lower leagues), you naturally angle inwards.

Binding is an easy ping to. Saying that if its stable and fair, most stuff evens itself out.
I will without doubt YC deliberate collapsing of a scrum though, even 1st offence. But I am influenced by my medical knowledge and potential danger.

 

[gillburt]

yes. very much so ...

....
i suppose the point is beware that size doesnt mean anything in teh senior game but it does in the youth game.
Safety is first.

Agree re: safety. No argument there.

However, just to throw into the mix.... I've reffed a lot of mini/midi games and although size is a major factor to be aware of, I find that the technique of FRs at this level is massively variable, and on many occasions have seen the smaller, better skilled 11 year olds destroy the massive, untrained opponent.

I now pay more attention to my chats with the coaches before the game, usually over a nice cuppa, where I weedle out of them how seriously they take and practice scrummaging, their qualifications and personal experience of/attitude towards scrummaging.