Are TMOs Ruining Things

[Marc Wakeham]

Oh dear.

 

[Lex Hipkins]

But what is meant by “move away” in 14.11b? At what point did TJ “move away” and Lawes could cross the offside line?

 

[crossref]

But what is meant by “move away” in 14.11b? At what point did TJ “move away” and Lawes could cross the offside line?

Indeed.
It's a brand new Law (2018) and this is perhaps the first time most people have ever really noticed it or focused on it
- I think that would be an excellent Clarification Request for a union to submit . I wouldnt be surprised if it has been asked already

My best guess is that 'moves away' means 'takes a step'

Which would mean a scrum half has a lot more time than in a ruck

 

[L'irlandais]

Yet when I highlight May 2018 law amendments this particular law is not flagged.
[LAWS]14.11
The tackle ends when:
A ruck is formed.
A player on their feet from either team gains possession of the ball and moves away or passes or kicks the ball.
The ball leaves the tackle area.
The ball is unplayable. If there is doubt about which player did not conform to law, the referee orders a scrum. The throw is taken by the team moving forward prior to the stoppage or, if no team was moving forward, by the attacking team.[/LAWS]Some might read that as no charge down possible, since it is not yet open play. The tackle ends once he has kicked it or has stepped away from the tackle.

 

[crossref]

Yet when I highlight May 2018 law amendments this particular law is not flagged.
[LAWS]14.11.

14.11 was introduced in January 2018 as part of the new Law Book (it was 14.10 then) and, as we have often observed, in the rewrite they didn't flag up the new Laws .

I suspect 14.11 was written because they already knew that the TWOL was on its way. It is the TWOL that makes it particukalrly important to know exactly when a tackle ends



We

 

[didds]

Indeed.
It's a brand new Law (2018) and this is perhaps the first time most people have ever really noticed it or focused on it
- I think that would be an excellent Clarification Request for a union to submit . I wouldnt be surprised if it has been asked already

My best guess is that 'moves away' means 'takes a step'

Which would mean a scrum half has a lot more time than in a ruck

so with 45 seconds left on the clock, the ball could lie there and the scrum half not move it until time is up, then knock on at the base to end the game? (caveat on deliberate knock ons of course but we've been here before). There is no "use it" facility for a TWOL under 14.11 (see above).

Presumably an opponent can engage the TWOL to create a ruck, and the clock may start ticking at that juncture?

Of course the contact won't be "over the ball" at that point... because the ball will be a metre or two behind the supporter standing in front of it. It cant be pinged for obstruction - at least not immediately - as that would mean TWOLs could never exist - which they clearly can. So presumably "use it" comes into play ?

Good here isn't it?

didds

 

[didds]

Yet when I highlight May 2018 law amendments this particular law is not flagged.
[LAWS]14.11
The tackle ends when:
A ruck is formed.
A player on their feet from either team gains possession of the ball and moves away or passes or kicks the ball.
The ball leaves the tackle area.
The ball is unplayable. If there is doubt about which player did not conform to law, the referee orders a scrum. The throw is taken by the team moving forward prior to the stoppage or, if no team was moving forward, by the attacking team.[/LAWS]Some might read that as no charge down possible, since it is not yet open play. The tackle ends once he has kicked it or has stepped away from the tackle.

well presumably oif the kick was flat enough for an opponent to charge that down it would be feasible, but otherwise the typical block/chargedown may indeed not be feasible.

 

[davidlandy]

Kind of answering my own question of here, but...

I think I can see the challenge the law-makers faced when having to define when is a TWOL over.

(a) In a ruck it's clear when the ball is "in" because the shape of the ruck is defined by the feet of the players on their feet over the ball, so it's clear when the ball is out, whereas

(b) In a TWOL there may be say just one player on his/her feet, somewhere near the ball which is on the ground, loosely surrounded by players who have rolled away, so there's no clear shape to a TWOL, so they couldn't use the same criteria for the ball being somehow "out" of the TWOL as for a ruck. (There's no "in", so there can't be an "out".)

This is why, I suspect, they creatively came up with the idea that the ball not only has to be touched, or played, but there must be "moving away", or passing, or or kicking, or the ball leaving "the tackle area".

However, in doing so, they neatly sidestepped the fundamental problem, leaving us mere mortals to try and work out what exactly is meant by "moving away", and "the tackle area".

 

[Dan_A]

Does it make any difference that the NZ forward standing over the ball definitely "breaks" his bind. It happens as Lawes moves forwards. If the forward is no longer bound to the tackle-thing, is the ball out?

 

[davidlandy]

Does it make any difference that the NZ forward standing over the ball definitely "breaks" his bind. It happens as Lawes moves forwards. If the forward is no longer bound to the tackle-thing, is the ball out?

It's actually an interesting question: at what point does an advancing player, who has entered the tackle legally to secure possession, cease to be "part of the tackle"? There's no requirement to "bind" since it's not a ruck, but surely at some distance from the tackle they cease to be part of it?

 

[Flish]

If it’s tackle only then there’s no requirement to bind, or stay bound, he just has to be over the ball to form the offside lines, and then it’s wait till the tackle is over - in fact, does a player even have to stay over the ball at all or can he wander off once the lines are formed?

 

[winchesterref]

16 pages dissecting the laws on an apparently "C&O" offence. I'm surprised they aren't still playing!

 

[Flish]

Just had our monthly refs meeting - wasn’t clear and obvious there either!

 

[Ian_Cook]

Yet when I highlight May 2018 law amendments this particular law is not flagged.
[LAWS]14.11
The tackle ends when:
A ruck is formed.
A player on their feet from either team gains possession of the ball and moves away or passes or kicks the ball.
The ball leaves the tackle area.
The ball is unplayable. If there is doubt about which player did not conform to law, the referee orders a scrum. The throw is taken by the team moving forward prior to the stoppage or, if no team was moving forward, by the attacking team.[/LAWS]Some might read that as no charge down possible, since it is not yet open play. The tackle ends once he has kicked it or has stepped away from the tackle.

I propose that a better wording for this might be...

"A player on their feet from either team gains possession of the ball and takes a step, or shapes to pass or kick the ball

You could use similar criteria to that which you use to judge whether or not a kicker of a conversion "begins the approach to kick"

 

[crossref]

Just had our monthly refs meeting - wasn’t clear and obvious there either!

Did you discuss whether it was a Ruck or a TWOL , and the different Laws that apply depending?

 

[Flish]

Did you discuss whether it was a Ruck or a TWOL , and the different Laws that apply depending?

Didn’t get that far! Most of it was around the assumption that it was a ruck, and most understood why the ref would make the offside call. Discussion also spent a lot of time around positioning and management from a grass roots rugby perspective, ie ‘what would we do’. For lower levels it was also reaffirmed that we want the ball out, so if in doubt protect the 9, but that’s a position you would affirm earlier in the game.

‘Ball lifted’ was the consensus for when the ball was out from the voices I heard (I don’t think there would have been a different approach for a tackle only).

 

[crossref]

Yes.
Well because WR smuggled in the TWOL without telling anyone, the concept isn't very well known yet

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Did they really not tell anyone?

 

[crossref]

Did they really not tell anyone?

The opposite, they told everyone that the Law Trial had been adopted in full. That simply wasn't true - In the Law Trial a Ruck is formed . The new Law created something entirely new a TWOL

Note also the weasel words used in #11 .. they knew what they were doing

Yes, I think it's fair to say 'smuggled'

.The World Rugby Council has unanimously decided to adopt into law the complete package of 12 law amendments that are currently under global trial.

Approval follows an approval recommendation by the Rugby Committee after comprehensive evaluation of trial performance from playing, coaching, match officiating, fan and player welfare perspectives by the specialist 15s Laws Review Group (LRG).

With the global law trials having operated since August in the northern hemisphere and January in the southern hemisphere, the amendments come into effect immediately and will be codified within the simplified law book from 1 January, 2019.

"World Rugby continually reviews the laws to ensure that the game is as enjoyable, simple and safe as possible at all levels," said World Rugby Chairman Bill Beaumont.

In short, the law amendments that have been adopted into law are:

1. Uncontested scrums must have eight players (Law 3.15)
2. Permit kick to touch after time has elapsed (Law 5.7c)
3. Where multiple penalty infringements the non-offending team can choose the most advantageous (Law 7.2d)
4. Penalty try has no conversion (Law 8.1c, 8.3 and 8.7)
5. Touch, 22m and in goal simplification (Law 18)
6. Scrum – no signal from ref (Law 19.22)
7. Scrum – alignment of scrum-half (Law 19.15f)
8. Scrum – compulsory strike (LRG insist that for player welfare purposes this is a compulsory strike by the hooker (Law 19.22)
9. Scrum - Allow number eight to pick up from second row of scrum (Law 19.36c)
10. Tackler must get up before playing the ball and then can only play from their side of the tackle gate (Law 14.6)
11. Change in pre-ruck offside line formation – at least one player on their feet and over the ball which is on the ground (Law 14.11)
12. No kicking out of ruck (Law 15)