[Law] Folau’s online comments have taken a turn for the worse.

[Dickie E]

"sir, please remove your flag from covering sponsor's signage"

[in best French accent] "you nasty homophobe, I fart in your general direction"

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

As Brel put it, “On n'était pas du même bord. On n'était pas du même chemin”

What path would you have chosen if you were the assigned ref to this Dragons/Tigers game, and you were aware IF would be playing?

This being a referee site and all.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

The notion that he is entitled to say what he wants, gives bigotry a form of legitimacy. So much so, that some bigoted little man felt entitled to squash the freedom of speech of a tiny minority.

Free speech is far from a notion. It gives you the freedom to speak against any bigotry view that which you do not agree.

Who is the bigoted little man in your post, or is that a figure of speech?

 

[SimonSmith]

Free speech is far from a notion. It gives you the freedom to speak against any bigotry view that which you do not agree.

Who is the bigoted little man in your post, or is that a figure of speech?

There is a perfectly legitimate view, outside the USA, that speech in the oppression or hatred of protected characteristics is not to be protected.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

There is a perfectly legitimate view, outside the USA, that speech in the oppression or hatred of protected characteristics is not to be protected.

I think you have made a perfectly legitimate decision to live in USA.

How broad is this perfectly legitimate view that you speak of? What are protected characteristics? Who decided what protected characteristics are? And how are they protected?, by laws?, how are laws enforced?

There are about 70-74 countries where homosexuality is illegal. Is this perfectly legitimate view in the remaining 120 or so countries?

Are fat people a protected characteristic? or are rugby referees? or police officers? or Vegans? or cyclops? or fossil fuel burners? or drunks

I need a group, what group am I in? Oh I'm in the group that lets stupid people talk, and let them show how stupid they can be, and how fragile their view, and even that they have this wacko view.

Thx for letting me talk

 

[SimonSmith]

I think you have made a perfectly legitimate decision to live in USA.

How broad is this perfectly legitimate view that you speak of? What are protected characteristics? Who decided what protected characteristics are? And how are they protected?, by laws?, how are laws enforced?

There are about 70-74 countries where homosexuality is illegal. Is this perfectly legitimate view in the remaining 120 or so countries?

Are fat people a protected characteristic? or are rugby referees? or police officers? or Vegans? or cyclops? or fossil fuel burners? or drunks

I need a group, what group am I in? Oh I'm in the group that lets stupid people talk, and let them show how stupid they can be, and how fragile their view, and even that they have this wacko view.

Thx for letting me talk

Stop being an ass.
(Being an ass isn't a protected characteristic)

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

(Being an ass isn't a protected characteristic)

I can show you an 8 million dollar settlement to prove that it is protected

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Simon and L'irl,

Where do writers come up with these perfectly legitimate ideas?, or just food for thought?

https://www.spiked-online.com/2020/02/19/israel-folau-excommunicated-for-his-beliefs/

 

[SimonSmith]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

I don't remember either. I think I was poking fun at your use of "perfectly" to emphasize how non inclusive you are toward other humans.
Not all humans are as brilliant as you and I. Some may find "perfectly" to mean flawless and undebatable. Remember not everyone has an average i.q. like us and they may need help with their indoctrination and they need help thinking for themselves.

If you read articles on IFs original post most are paraphrased. With validity of the post in question it is not intended to be hateful. I find the post silly, but the post included a warning and did offer a solution. His efforts were unoriginal and probably not effective. I doubt he led anyone to repentance. However, counter posts with slanted words and vitriol are show lack of objectivity of writer and are equally ineffective.

Name calling does not bolster ones cause or case either. It is simply a method of venting anger. Ironically, that is why trump is both hated and loved. He loves name calling. Hated because he uses the tactics of the left and has been successful (in elections) in using them. Simple tactics that work "perfectly"

 

[Ian_Cook]

Seems to be some hatred of a certain player or belief system going on in this thread. I think the new sect's that new age or "born-again's" often seem to create are less about god than their own ego, but that doesn't mean I go around bad-mouthing them because its not my belief set.

Plenty of people, regardless of religious belief, are willing to physically, emotionally or mentally harm others for their own gain. Does IF's comments make him a hypocrite? Probably. But if he is a hypocrite/bigot, he is in good company with those who also choose to act as judge and jury on his behaviour based on their belief set.

Does Folau have the right to believe what he wants? Of course he does. However, if he is going to to spout his beliefs, and that spouting includes gay-bashing, woman-bashing, black-bashing or any other type of bigoted proclaimations, he can just shut the fuck up about his rancid beliefs.

 

[Jarrod Burton]

D...and that spouting includes gay-bashing, woman-bashing, black-bashing or any other type of bigoted proclamations, he can just shut the fuck up about his rancid beliefs.

Can you point us to these gay-bashing, women-bashing, etc posts? Why does he have to shut up about his belief's when they are shared by other major religions and we don't demand that they stop teaching their dogma? Catholicism & Islam both believe that homosexuality and adultery are cardinal sins but we don't see the level of vitriol and abuse being hurled at them.

The event that kicked all this off was him posting a picture with a list of people that his church (along with Catholicism and Islam) believe are sinners - gays, adulterers, drunks, liars, fornicators, thief's, idolaters and atheists - and that the only way to avoid going to 'Hell' was to turn to Jesus. Terms like 'homophobic' or 'misogyny/misandry' are being used too often IMO that when a genuine hate crime occurs, it just becomes part of the background noise. Would the same level of hate be directed at him if he had left gay off the list?

 

[L'irlandais]

Interesting article

.... You can tack free speech on to any crackpot prejudice you have and suddenly you’re a lone truth-teller standing up to the hordes. It’s a clever rhetorical trick, the free speech defence. But it shouldn’t be taken much more seriously than that.

The French have given him’a second chance, because in general they separate private life from professional duties, especially in the context of talented Sports men. However they won’t tolerate for long, if it hurts the club financially.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Can you point us to these gay-bashing, women-bashing, etc posts?

It was a general comment about speech nothing more... I did not say he made woman-bashing comments, I said IF he did!

Why does he have to shut up about his belief's when they are shared by other major religions and we don't demand that they stop teaching their dogma? Catholicism & Islam both believe that homosexuality and adultery are cardinal sins but we don't see the level of vitriol and abuse being hurled at them.

The Pope is talking to his own flock and he is responsible only to them. Once the Pope contracts to be a part of an organisation that embraces inclusiveness, and then he tweets or publishes a Social Media post containing a message like Folau's, then he doesn't attract the hate mail, then you might have a point.

The event that kicked all this off was him posting a picture with a list of people that his church (along with Catholicism and Islam) believe are sinners - gays, adulterers, drunks, liars, fornicators, thief's, idolaters and atheists - and that the only way to avoid going to 'Hell' was to turn to Jesus. Terms like 'homophobic' or 'misogyny/misandry' are being used too often IMO that when a genuine hate crime occurs, it just becomes part of the background noise. Would the same level of hate be directed at him if he had left gay off the list?

Irrelevant. The organisation he worked for does not embrace "adulterers, drunks, liars, fornicators, thief's and idolaters" as part of its stated inclusiveness policy. It DOES embrace gay people and other members of the LGBTQ community. Folau, as both a representative and an ambassador of both this sport and his sport's organising body, needed to keep his bigoted trap shut. As for atheists, well, I'm one of those, and I am not at all offended to be included in Folau's list of bad people. Don't give a rats arse if Folau thinks I will be going to hell, because I know there is no such place.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Interesting article

.... You can tack free speech on to any crackpot prejudice you have and suddenly you’re a lone truth-teller standing up to the hordes. It’s a clever rhetorical trick, the free speech defence. But it shouldn’t be taken much more seriously than that.

The French have given him’a second chance, because in general they separate private life from professional duties, especially in the context of talented Sports men. However they won’t tolerate for long, if it hurts the club financially.

One of the things that really chaps my arse is bigots claiming that their Free Speech is being infringed when they get deplatformed. I hear racist bigots like Alex Jones (Infowars) and his idiot followers, complain that when Facebook or Twitter or their ISP has kicked them off their servers, that those organisations have infringed on his Free Speech rights.... WRONG. Those platforms are privately owned (Facebook by Mark Zuckerberg, Twitter by Jack Dorsey & Evan Williams, and the ISP by whoever owns the hosting company), they can have whoever they want on their platforms, and if they choose not to have Alex Jones and his Inforwars... that is their right.

What these bigoted idiots really do not understand that they actually do not have any rights at all to unconditional, absolute Free Speech.
What they have a right to is to not have their Free Speech limited BY THE GOVERNMENT. In the western (free) world its is governments that cannot restrict your free speech. In the USA its the First Amendment of the Constitution

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

In the Magna Carta, and the England's (?) 1689 Bill of Rights on which Australian, Canadian and New Zealand laws are based, it is the government guarantees to it people not to infringe on Free Speech.

 

[crossref]

If only it was so simple.
The IF saga is more complicated and nuanced than you allow, Ian. Which is why it continues to generate so much coverage and debate, including this long running thread which has very little to do with refereeing.

But fun to to see you defending the pope.

 

[L'irlandais]

I put this thread in non-rugby talk for that very reason.

I don’t think it is nearly so nuanced as you suggest. Israel Folau is not promoting Religious tolerance for others, so why on earth should he benefit from Religious tolerance from others? I hope the banning of rainbow flags at his debut match, will encourage future supporters to bring more flags, and tell the jobsworths where they can stick their ban.

 

[crossref]

I think he does promote religious tolerance , while also evangelising. (a mainstream position)

Do you have any quotes where he is intolerant of other religions

 

[L'irlandais]

Tolerant? Like these?

The 30-strong congregation of the Truth of Jesus Christ Church, established by Folau’s father Eni in 2013, believes the "everlasting torture and doom" of hell awaits most Christians, with Catholicism seen as "the synagogue of Satan" and "masked devil worship".

His comments about Catholics are offensive. But since I am completely comfortable with my own beliefs, I am quite happy for him to carry on spouting nonsense to his own congregation of 30 odd loons. It’s the online publication of such drivel I object to. The very suggestion that Mormons are Christians, is like the Flat Earth society’s beliefs, simply ludicrous; a 1820 style fiction.

Scientists have demonstrated that honey bees were first brought to the New World by Spanish explorers in the fifteenth century, but the Book of Mormon, in Ether 2:3, claims they were introduced around 2000 B.C.

The problem was that Joseph Smith wasn’t a naturalist; he didn’t know anything about bees and where and when they might be found. He saw bees in America and threw them in the Book of Mormon as a little local color. He didn’t realize he’d get stung by them.

Now that he has been born again into an equally ludicrous sect, he is no closer to the pearly gates. Suggesting he has merely changed one form of Christianity for another is missing the point. His Dad made up his own religion, 2020 style fiction, loosely based on the Christian bible, only with bigotry at its core. Words have meaning, freedom of speech is there to protect truths, like basic Human Rights. Not in any way there to allow liars to spin their fictious webs on the Internet.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

It was a general comment about speech nothing more... I did not say he made woman-bashing comments, I said IF he did!
.

Gold, pure gold