League/Merit table oRganisational details

[OB..]

A thread on the abuse of referees has become a general discussion on the relative merits of Australian and other systems for running competitive rugby, particularly as regards providing touch judges, ground marshals etc. I think we need to be clear on the various constraints, so here is a summary of how it works in England.

All leagues and merit tables are structured according to the standards of the teams. Most club 1xt XVs play in RFU run leagues that do not cater for lower teams (there are a few exceptions that allow lower teams below Level 8). Some one-team clubs play in Merit Tables. All these competitions provide for promotion and relegation each season.

Where 2nd and 3rd etc teams are involved, that means the 4th XV from one club might play the 1st (probably only) XV from another. It is in general not realistic to play club v club across the board.

Traditionally matches are played on a Saturday afternoon. Because it gets dark quite early in winter, 14:30 is the latest practical start time for most of the season. Few clubs have more than two pitches and many only one. Earlier matches would have to start at 12:30, 10:30, 8:30. In general early kick-offs are unpopular. It is a cultural thing, but it would be hard to change by fiat - we would just lose a lot of players.

A scheme to run courses for club TJs has not been very effective. Making it mandatory (at certain levels) might be feasible, but at the lowest levels you are often lucky to have a full 15 players.

It would be nice to have an official position of Ground Marshall, but many clubs would have trouble filling the post.

 

[crossref]

another factor - a number of clubs (round here) don't have their own grounds at all, but play on variously owned communal pitches, sharing facilities. After the game they go to the pub

 

[CrouchTPEngage]

Nice idea. And I want to be positive. Problem is that I cant see any lower-level squads having numbers enough for TJ's. I've reffed at level 8 thru 12 over the last few months and many times they turn up with 15 players and 1 coach and his dog

 

[SimonSmith]

With respect OB, I suspect that's because if you asked them to provide a Marshal, they wouldn't be incentivized so to do.

Make it a non negotiable item that they must provide in order to get referees or have teams compete, the tune would change pretty sharpish.

 

[Dickie E]

the way it works here (in Victoria) is with juniors. A team that is able to provide an accredited TJ is granted an extra competition point. If you don't provide an accredited TJ there is no penalty or fine - you just missed out on the bonus point. Soon canny clubs realised that having a TJ was just as important as having a good hooker, scrum half or fullback.

A team of juniors will always have a dozen or so parents hovering around.

Not sure how it works in NSW or Qld but we don't have this system for adults.

 

[TigerCraig]

In Sydney there are 4 types of rugby.

Premiership: The top tier where clubs like Randwick play. They have 4 senior grades and up to 3 grades of colts. All the senior matches are held at one clubs ground while colts are at the other clubs. 4th grade kicks off around 11, first grade at 3. Only first grade play 80 minute games. Appointed Teams of 3 officiate at least the top 2 senior grades and top colts grade and are miked up. Generally the 2nd and 3rd grade referees will run touch for 1st grade. Lower grades may have a TO3, but generally have on the sidelines a fully accredited AR who while not appointed travels with the team and is well known to the appointed refs. Games are at enclosed stadia which while mostly council owned are on long term lease and admission is charged. Match of the week is televised live. No pro/rel, the member clubs are set in stone.

Suburban (subbies): The next tier. There are 6 divisions. Top 2 divisions have 4 senior teams and 1 grade of colts. There is pro/rel between these divisions based on a club championship using weighted premiership points from the various grades. Lower divisions will have variously 3 (3rd and 4th division), 2 (5th division) or 1 (6th division) senior teams and no colts. Only pro/rel is where teams can field an extra team/lose a team and is by application to the union, not automatic. First and second grade will have TO3, usually not miked. Lower grades will usually have a regular accredited AR. Like Premiership all teams play at the one venue on the one day against teams from the same opposition club, and again only first grade play 80 mins. No bonuses for having an AR, but fines are possible for not. Ground marshals are required as are first aiders. A strict amateur policy is enforced and most clubs don't charge admission. Fields must be roped if there are no formal hoardings.

Juniors (under 10's to under 18's): Appointed refs to all games, teams are required to provide an accredited AR, ground marshal and the home team a first aider. There are no friendlies or festivals, all games are league and Under 13 up play Under 19 laws. The bonus point for providing an AR is on the books but not used. If a team doesn't have an accredited AR the other team has the right to provide both and there is the potential for fines. Fields must be roped if there are no formal hoardings.

Schools: Varies from brilliantly organised to a shambles

 

[didds]

With respect OB, I suspect that's because if you asked them to provide a Marshal, they wouldn't be incentivized so to do.

Make it a non negotiable item that they must provide in order to get referees or have teams compete, the tune would change pretty sharpish.

... or in some clubs they would just end up not putting games on with no TJs available. See my post above about a new club with a bare bones committee etc. You may think I am making this stuff up, but I am not. Unless you are suggesting that teams HAVE to play with 14 men and have a TJ? Personally - a non starter.

or what if the provided TJ is someone that cannot run (me! medically told NOT to - replacement hip) so basically stands on half way and waves a flag? Or is actually just rubbish?


didds

 

[OB..]

With respect OB, I suspect that's because if you asked them to provide a Marshal, they wouldn't be incentivized so to do.

Make it a non negotiable item that they must provide in order to get referees or have teams compete, the tune would change pretty sharpish.

Making it mandatory involves being able to check, and a club would need more than one so as to provide cover. In any case I don't see that we would get the clubs to accept it.

 

[TigerCraig]

Making it mandatory involves being able to check, and a club would need more than one so as to provide cover. In any case I don't see that we would get the clubs to accept it.

Depends on who wields the power, the club or the union. As an aside we have a number of cricket associations which have 7 team grades. Guess what the team with the bye does each week? They supply the umpires for the grade below or get docked points and are fined. First grade of course get 'real' umpires. It works. If we can make 13 year old girls umpire netball surely you can make 30 year old men run touch

 

[TigerCraig]

... or in some clubs they would just end up not putting games on with no TJs available. See my post above about a new club with a bare bones committee etc. You may think I am making this stuff up, but I am not. Unless you are suggesting that teams HAVE to play with 14 men and have a TJ?


didds

Maybe too many clubs with not enough resources

 

[OB..]

Depends on who wields the power, the club or the union.

Even if the local union decided to mandate such a scheme, I have no doubt an EGM would be called by the clubs to remove it. We do not want or need a war between clubs and Union, so it would have to be an agreement.

Maybe the financing is different? Our clubs basically finance themselves. The Union provides support in various admin aspects and runs representative teams. It also offers part payment of fees for official courses etc, but that is only a small part of the financial needs of the clubs.

 

[didds]

Depends on who wields the power, the club or the union. As an aside we have a number of cricket associations which have 7 team grades. Guess what the team with the bye does each week? They supply the umpires for the grade below or get docked points and are fined. First grade of course get 'real' umpires. It works. If we can make 13 year old girls umpire netball surely you can make 30 year old men run touch

that was introduced a while ago locally here, expect there isn;t a "bye" week. It saw a tsunami of umpire withdrawals who had no interest in umpiring teams that they had no connection with ie being an obviously "neutral" umpire. I didn't condone it but I could understand that as this was their voluntary time they would rather spend it with their mates - and disliked the tacit implication of biasedness in their standing for their "own" club.

didds

 

[didds]

Maybe too many clubs with not enough resources

maybe. but it would hamper a start up in an area with no club at all . which is hardly promoting an uptake of rugby.

Whose game is it anyway?

didds

 

[TigerCraig]

Maybe the financing is different? Our clubs basically finance themselves. The Union provides support in various admin aspects and runs representative teams. It also offers part payment of fees for official courses etc, but that is only a small part of the financial needs of the clubs.

Here the union is all-powerful, especially in Subbies and Juniors. Clubs have to apply for re-affiliation every year, and the Suburban Union in particular has been quite happy over the last few years to refuse clubs applications. There are at least 3 clubs I can think of that have been booted in the last couple of years. Clubs not only have to finance themselves, but have to send money "up the line" to the union as well.

Much the same in other sports.

 

[OB..]

Our clubs do have to affiliate to the RFU and the local Constituent Body eg Gloucestershire RFU, however the CBs are subject to the clubs, who are represented at meetings, can vote at the AGM or call an EGM. A recent attempt by the RFU to introduce a better league system got effectively vetoed by a caucus of clubs calling themselves the Northern Action Group (NAG).

 

[Camquin]

Better is an interesting word.

Cobbled together on the back of a fag packet without working through the details might be a better description.

The costed plan got torn up and a new plan suggested.

The RFU was going going to end up paying several million in prize money for the cups - while individual clubs would have been spending that on the extra travel. The club winning the cup at each level might just have been able to afford a half of shandy each for the winning squad. I posted the numbers on Rolling Maul.

The league structure had a horrid 8 into 3 moment. Which means not demoting the club finishing 12th last with the best record. Which often comes down to how bad the other two relegated teams in each league are - rather than how good that team is compared to the two being relegated.

It took games away from the clubs who wanted more fixtures for the gate money to pay semi-pro players and added extra games - and long distance travel - to the teams further down the pyramid who wantd fewer games and less travel.

It did nothing to resolve 2nd team rugby structures.

But yes aside from that it was a useful exercise and was money well spent by the RFU.

 

[OB..]

Camquin - I am not going to bother going over it all because the proposal is dead.

Next cab on the rank is a scheme to deal with payment of players.