Receiver position at LO.

[Balones]

[LAWS]Any player may be the receiver but each team may only have one receiver at a lineout.[/LAWS] Lineout Definitions.

Yes of course there can only be one, but my point was that any player standing between the 5m and 15m lines could potentially be that one.

Also: [LAWS]The receiver is the player in position to catch the ball when lineout players pass or knock the ball back from the /QUOTE]

Yes and he was in position to do so.

I'll say it again. The player in question was a not a participant so the offside lines apply until the lineout is over.
Any player can be a receiver - yes but he also has to be a participant.
If he is not a participant then he cannot be in the position to catch the ball. - Unless of course they pass it 10M!!

It looks as if OB and I posted at the same time.

I think you will find that if OB and I were observing you both of us would note it down as a law error on the report.

 

[Decorily]

I'll say it again. The player in question was a not a participant so the offside lines apply until the lineout is over.
Any player can be a receiver - yes but he also has to be a participant.
If he is not a participant then he cannot be in the position to catch the ball. - Unless of course they pass it 10M!!

It looks as if OB and I posted at the same time.

I think you will find that if OB and I were observing you both of us would note it down as a law error on the report.

In which case I would ask you which law?

 

[The Fat]

Had a game recently where at a LO the throwing in side had no apparent receiver ie no player standing in usual position. After the ball was won in the air a player who was standing in the back line between the 5m and 15m lines ran forward and took the ball off the top. It was immediately questioned by oppo calling for off side. I called play on.

Was I correct?

I am a little confused (I'm old)
Are you saying that a player, who later claims to be the receiver, stands 10m from the line-of-touch and doesn't move forward until the ball has left the lineout, and then still manages to run forward and catch the ball the jumper has tapped/knocked/passed/jettisoned off the top?

I suppose that technically speaking, as long as the player started to run forward AFTER the jumper passed the ball i.e. the ball has left the lineout and therefore the lineout is over, then any player standing 10m back could run forward and do the same.
However, for that player in the OP to claim to be the receiver is a stretch and to me is simply not complying with the Laws. He wasn't taking up the position of a receiver before the ball was thrown in and was therefore not a PARTICIPATING PLAYER. As such, he was part of the "Other Players" and his offside line would be 10m back.
In the scenario in the OP, IMO, the ball must clearly have left the lineout before any of the "other players" moved forward and if they complied with that then that is the explanation you would offer to the opposition at the next stoppage or in the bar etc.
If the player who caught the ball claimed to be a receiver, then I would want to see him clearly taking up that position before the lineout. A player standing 9.5m back is going to be treated as one of the backs and is going to be managed by either me or my AR as such.

 

[Decorily]

You are better off sticking with the normal application of the law. It causes much less confusion/irritation.

I agree......but for the purposes of this discussion I will continue to argue !

 

[Balones]

In which case I would ask you which law?

19.8 - The diagram clearly shows what constitutes a lineout and who are participants and who are not.
19.15(a) - A player who is not taking part in the lineout is offside if that player oversteps the offside line before the lineout has ended.

 

[Decorily]

I am a little confused (I'm old)
Are you saying that a player, who later claims to be the receiver, stands 10m from the line-of-touch and doesn't move forward until the ball has left the lineout, and then still manages to run forward and catch the ball the jumper has tapped/knocked/passed/jettisoned off the top?

I suppose that technically speaking, as long as the player started to run forward AFTER the jumper passed the ball i.e. the ball has left the lineout and therefore the lineout is over, then any player standing 10m back could run forward and do the same.
However, for that player in the OP to claim to be the receiver is a stretch and to me is simply not complying with the Laws. He wasn't taking up the position of a receiver before the ball was thrown in and was therefore not a PARTICIPATING PLAYER. As such, he was part of the "Other Players" and his offside line would be 10m back.
In the scenario in the OP, IMO, the ball must clearly have left the lineout before any of the "other players" moved forward and if they complied with that then that is the explanation you would offer to the opposition at the next stoppage or in the bar etc.
If the player who caught the ball claimed to be a receiver, then I would want to see him clearly taking up that position before the lineout. A player standing 9.5m back is going to be treated as one of the backs and is going to be managed by either me or my AR as such.

Lineout is not over when player moves forward .

"....not complying with the laws. He wasn't taking up the position of a receiver......."

Which law is he breaching?
What is the position of a receiver?

 

[Decorily]

19.8 - The diagram clearly shows what constitutes a lineout and who are participants and who are not.
19.15(a) - A player who is not taking part in the lineout is offside if that player oversteps the offside line before the lineout has ended.

19.8 (i) states....."at least 2 metres ".
Does 5, 8 ,9.5m or indeed 12m not satisfy this requirement?

 

[Balones]

19.8 (i) states....."at least 2 metres ".
Does 5, 8 ,9.5m or indeed 12m not satisfy this requirement?

The diagram clearly shows that anyone back beyond 10M is a non-participant.

 

[Pegleg]

For me once the player goes 10 mtrs back he aint no receiver. To be a receiver you must be positioned to RECEIVE the ball if it is KNOCKED back from the LO. A pass 10? Fair enough but Knocked? Sorry he's not there for that.

From the definitionsReceiver. The receiver is the player in position to catch the ball when lineout
players pass or knock the ball back from the lineout. Any player may be the
receiver but each team may have only one receiver at a lineout.

It is beyond the relms of common sense t obe in a position to be reciveing the ball in the 10 position. Sorry I just don't buy your position at all.

I woudl expect the recieve rto be between 2 and 5 mtrs away I'd not be too picky about it but once he gets to around 9 or 10 then my radar is going to put him in the non participating players and he's back 10 until the LO is over.

 

[Balones]

Also from definitions -
Players taking part in the lineout known as participating players. Players taking part in the lineout are the player who throws-in and an immediate opponent, the two players waiting to receive the ball from the lineout and the lineout players. To receive the ball you have to be close to the lineout.
All other players. All other players who are not taking part in the lineout must be at least 10 metres behind the line of touch, on or behind their goal line if that is nearer, until the lineout ends. The law makers have provided a diagram and indicated by this sentence that non-participants are beyond 10M

 

[Decorily]

The diagram clearly shows that anyone back beyond 10M is a non-participant.

Not really..... it only clearly shows the offside line for non participants.

 

[Balones]

I agree......but for the purposes of this discussion I will continue to argue !

Just face it - you are wrong. Either accept it or start the process of changing or clarifying the laws by writing to the RFU. (Or the appropriate governing body if you are not based in RFU land.)

 

[Decorily]

So let's look at a 5m LO. The OS line is now only 5m. Is it reasonable to allow the receiver to stand in line with the non participating players?

 

[Balones]

So let's look at a 5m LO. The OS line is now only 5m. Is it reasonable to allow the receiver to stand in line with the non participating players?

Yes.
From five metres anyone could come forward to get the ball if it is passed off the top because it has left the lineout. This distance is just about possible.

The real crux of this argument is that it is impossible to take the ball "off the top", as you put it, from beyond 10M because it is physically impossible. If the ball is knocked back forcibly and travels a reasonable distance then of course anyone can come forward and take it because the lineout if over. We can have the situation then where the ball is travelling one way and a player towards it.
By 'off the top' I assume you mean directly to the receiver's hands.

 

[chbg]

So let's look at a 5m LO. The OS line is now only 5m. Is it reasonable to allow the receiver to stand in line with the non participating players?

If I could not identify who the receiver was I will be checking verbally before the LO is taken, and (if one owns up) suggesting that he stands just in front of the GL so that there is no room for error. I am not going to allow them to decide who is the receiver from 2 or more standing on the GL between 5 and 15m only when the ball is about to come off the top of the LO.

 

[Decorily]

By 'off the top' I assume you mean directly to the receiver's hands.

Yes...

 

[Decorily]

Isn't the receiver entitled to take a step or two forward/any direction before he catches the ball and before the ball is passed from the LO?

 

[chbg]

Isn't the receiver entitled to take a step or two forward/any direction before he catches the ball and before the ball is passed from the LO?

Which is why you need to know who is in that position beforehand.

 

[ChuckieB]

Yes.
From five metres anyone could come forward to get the ball if it is passed off the top because it has left the lineout. This distance is just about possible.

The real crux of this argument is that it is impossible to take the ball "off the top", as you put it, from beyond 10M because it is physically impossible. If the ball is knocked back forcibly and travels a reasonable distance then of course anyone can come forward and take it because the lineout if over. We can have the situation then where the ball is travelling one way and a player towards it.
By 'off the top' I assume you mean directly to the receiver's hands.

i have been noting some examples in SR where the supported player is being held longer and longer. He is able to better pick his throw off the top in the direction of the receiver who is able to stand so much deeper. A delayed throw seems to disrupt the organisation of the defending team. Whether it's 10m is debatable but no reason to suppose the impossible will not eventually become possible, certainly at these levels of the game.

 

[The Fat]

Lineout is not over when player moves forward .

"....not complying with the laws. He wasn't taking up the position of a receiver......."

Which law is he breaching?
What is the position of a receiver?

Lineout is not over when player moves forward .
In that case he is offside. If he starts behind the 10m offside line, how is the referee to know he is the Receiver and not just one of the "other players"?
If he starts behind the 10m offside line, he is not a Receiver.


Which law is he breaching?
19.8(i)

What is the position of a receiver?
DEFINITIONS paragraph 3 and 19.8(i)

But I know why you asked those questions so I know you have already checked the Law references.
The Laws state that the Receiver must stand a minimum of 2m back from his team mates in the lineout and "is the player in position to catch the ball when lineout players pass or knock the ball back from the lineout".
Being 10m back is not in a position to catch a ball that is passed or knocked by a jumper.