[Law] Time to take a penalty.

[Balones]

It used to be that you had to take a penalty within one minute after indicating an attempt on goal. Has this been removed? In the Scotland/Ireland match today Sexton was taking well over this time. (78.5secs for the kick just before half time.) The 90 seconds for a conversion is still there in the laws.

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

kickers have been taking the p*ss for years now, another area of the game which should be tightened up on.

 

[Balones]

The first Sexton penalty of the second half took 83 seconds and the ‘winning’ penalty took 87. I started taking the time after getting a feeling early on that he was taking longer than I thought was usual. We had the situation that at some of the Irish penalties we had two plus minutes before the ball was struck after the penalty was awarded. Even scrums aren’t taking that long and we moan about them!

 

[timmad]

And when they're not kicking for goal, penalty takers appear to regard the mark they are given as an approximate point from which they can amble forward and / or increase the angle to touch before booting it from 5 metres or more in front. One warning, then a scrum to the opposition?

 

[didds]

kickers have been taking the p*ss for years now, another area of the game which should be tightened up on.

They've been TtP for years because refs let them.

 

[Balones]

I realise that it is law 8.21. I was a bit tongue in cheek when asking if it had been removed. We seem to have far too many laws that appeared to have gone out of favour as far as being applied are concerned.

 

[Phil E]

We had the situation that at some of the Irish penalties we had two plus minutes before the ball was struck after the penalty was awarded.

But the timer doesn't start from when the penalty is awarded. It starts from the team indicating they wish to kick at goal.

 

[Balones]

Re: Time to take a penalty

But the timer doesn't start from when the penalty is awarded. It starts from the team indicating they wish to kick at goal.

Yes I realise that. The times I took were from that moment. I am just saying that from the moment the whistle was blown, overall the time was longer than it took for most scrums to be completed and yet we moan about the amount of time they take up in a game.

In fact my timer started when the referee indicated posts so the confirmation by the kicker was a second or two before that.

 

[Phil E]

Re: Time to take a penalty

Yes I realise that. The times I took were from that moment. I am just saying that from the moment the whistle was blown, overall the time was longer than it took for most scrums to be completed and yet we moan about the amount of time they take up in a game.

In fact my timer started when the referee indicated posts so the confirmation by the kicker was a second or two before that.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Zebra1922]

It’s a very simple thing for a referee to manage. Warn the kicker they have 60 seconds, tell them at 30 and 15. You’re unlikely to penalise them first time they go over the time limit, but if you want them and they do it again, penalise.

At the rope level there is clearly no drive from WR to enforce this. A referee that blew for this would be hauled over the coals in the press and by assessors. Therefore it won’t stop at the top levels.

 

[Balones]

It’s a very simple thing for a referee to manage. Warn the kicker they have 60 seconds, tell them at 30 and 15. You’re unlikely to penalise them first time they go over the time limit, but if you want them and they do it again, penalise.

At the rope level there is clearly no drive from WR to enforce this. A referee that blew for this would be hauled over the coals in the press and by assessors. Therefore it won’t stop at the top levels.

Actually, after very recently spoken to one of our international referees, they have become more aware of the situation and will be looking to speed things up. That’s the idea, but actually doing something about it is a different story. Also, possibly in light of the Wales/England match there is a suggestion that the ‘talk to your players’ type of stoppage might be replaced with ‘get the message across to your players’ and leave that up to them to get the message across while the game goes on. Overall WR is trying to get more and more continuity into the game.

 

[didds]

we can see/hear more pace is being sought with the scrum time stuff about come on, klets get on with it stuff. Excellent - but there is no acttual time olimit placed so it can just be "noise" as there is no onus on anyone really (probably beacuise it could be either one of two packs, or both of thm, or both but at different times in the sequence).

Meanwhile the use it at rucks, PK/con timings do have alleged times provided but are at best open to when a ref decides to axctually call use it which differs... or is just ignored (I am led to understand there was an 8 second gap between use it and the subsequent action in wasps game last night .

Ive no faith this will become anything vaguiely menaingful or permananet - witness straight put ins froma few years back. where did that go?

 

[BikingBud]

Interesting that quite a few kicks were taken very quickly yesterday, penalties and conversions, including Elliot Daly's drop goal conversion (that brought back memories of Zin Zan in 2005). This demonstrated ability to score from kicks within a short period would suggest that the current "allowance" is far too generous.

Same applies for line out and scrum, if we want some focus to get the game going quicker then it has to start with positive action to reduce the wasted time.

Line out called, hooker there, ball in within 15 seconds or free kick.
Scrum mark given, full pack set within 15 secs or free kick.
Penalty same and conversion the same.

For rucks fine if they wish to keep it at the base but not to allow caterpillar building. The defending team then has to decide if to commit to counter ruck but it must be a competition, caterpillars are not competitive!

Cut down the stoppages and see which teams can really demonstrate superior fitness, speed of thought and capability to set and cope with consistent high tempo.

 

[didds]

Interesting that quite a few kicks were taken very quickly yesterday, penalties and conversions, including Elliot Daly's drop goal conversion .

Id suggets that haste was more to do with England wanting to ensure the restart happened and game continued that any desire to simly be expedient.

That said on the wider point, if WR feel that the game needs speeding up wrt time taken for kicks thea simple answer may be to just make all tries 7 points and no conversions, or all conversions to be drop goals and no place kicks .

(CF the USA trial laws in another thread ...)

 

[didds]

Line out called, hooker there, ball in within 15 seconds or free kick.
Scrum mark given, full pack set within 15 secs or free kick.

To whom? the non throwing side for the lineout/scrum?

What if its the non throwing side that causes the delay?

What if if a scrum is slow setting up egbcauseone side takes a while to settle and by the time the have the prepped side is now out of balance and needs to rwesettle. who is at failt here - the first tea for not being ready when the others are even though its within the time frame? Or the initially setlled team that has to resettle de to the others' delay?

pens/cons

no disagreement there. blwo the whistle ion 60/90 seconds 9or whatever time is permitted). Maybe make all conversions a DG.

WRT rucks and "use it" ... Id suggest there needs to be more consistemncuy over when the call is made - when the ball is at the back of the ruck but not yet in the cateropillar/ Or when its at the rear of the caterpillar?

 

[BikingBud]

Id suggets that haste was more to do with England wanting to ensure the restart happened and game continued that any desire to simly be expedient.

That said on the wider point, if WR feel that the game needs speeding up wrt time taken for kicks thea simple answer may be to just make all tries 7 points and no conversions, or all conversions to be drop goals and no place kicks .

(CF the USA trial laws in another thread ...)

Don't need to gift points as the skill of the kicker is worthy of reward.

However, teams have demonstrated that they can do it, if they want to, and therefore do not need all the allowed time.

90 seconds is nearly 4% of a half and 60 seconds= 2.5%, is it really reasonable to give this much time to a kick?

If the time pressure leads to fewer kicks resulting in a score, then again the team with players that can perform better under increased pressure benefits.

 

[BikingBud]

To whom? the non throwing side for the lineout/scrum?

What if its the non throwing side that causes the delay?

What if if a scrum is slow setting up egbcauseone side takes a while to settle and by the time the have the prepped side is now out of balance and needs to rwesettle. who is at failt here - the first tea for not being ready when the others are even though its within the time frame? Or the initially setlled team that has to resettle de to the others' delay?



no disagreement there. blwo the whistle ion 60/90 seconds 9or whatever time is permitted). Maybe make all conversions a DG.

WRT rucks and "use it" ... Id suggest there needs to be more consistemncuy over when the call is made - when the ball is at the back of the ruck but not yet in the cateropillar/ Or when its at the rear of the caterpillar?

Against the team that is not ready!

Defending team line formed and waiting for throwing team to sort their lives out free kick, to defending team.

Delaying throws whilst all the dancing around occurs, including closing gaps and verging on dummy throws, free kick.

Teams set as a pack and waiting for other team to form up, free kick. Scrum half delaying throw in to scrum, free kick.

We then need to see active live wire scrum halves, challenging from the free kick.

It will adjust behaviours if the penalties are applied, adapt or lose!

Get back to playing the game at pace and rewarding constructive play. Watch some of the old classic games when they are on tv and see how it used to be.


OUTLAW THE CATERPILLAR

 

[didds]

so who gets openalsied in the scrum example I gacve? the team was wasnt imediately ready? or the team tyhat has to resettle after the delaying team are eventually ready cos theyd lost balance whilst waiting?

 

[BikingBud]

Maybe I didn't type it clearly enough!

THE TEAM THAT ISN'T READY!

Teams spend enough time on scrummage machines to get this correct. For a scrum eight people have to stand in close proximity and bind, they are then ready to follow the ref's instructions aren't they?

No need to adjust.
No need to settle.
No need to readjust - not allowed to push before ball is thrown in, unless they are seeking an illegal advantage. And believe me after more than 30 years of playing in the front row I know exactly how that works

The only reason teams don't comply is because they have no reason to invest in getting it correct. Is it now time to show a bit of the stick?

All of that is within the terms of managing the scrum or line out that the referee must deliver against. By using the phrase "without delay" it becomes a judgment call and it should be emphasised, at the high levels, that the current speed of play is considered unacceptable delay.

I cannot see why that would that be too difficult to sell to players and spectators.

Please explain if you think I am missing something.

 

[KoolFork]

This response will be lost here, but do we really need more penalties? Delays really aren't the problem.

Is rugby really an attractive enough spectator sport to appeal to those who have not played or have had some other skin in the game?

Take the scrum. The principal of the scrum from the law book is "The purpose (sic) of a scrum is to restart play with a contest for possession after a minor infringement or stoppage."

The reality is that the scrum is used to 'win' penalties. So, a team converts a minor infringement into a kickable penalty or a try-scoring opportunity, courtesy of the throw-in rules at lineouts from penalties. Does any referee really know what is going on in the scrum? It's all arbitrary - scrums are sometimes re-set, sometimes penalised; a referee will tell one team to 'use it' and allow another a secondary shove; one referee's slip is another's collapse; etc. The advantage is usually to the side putting-in especially if the put-in is only 'straight' as into the second row.

And then at the lineout, a maul will be formed (often illegally) or with an illegal set-up where 5 or so players illegally leave the lineout before it's over to set up the maul.Additional players then somehow magically move up the through the maul.

And so a knock-on is turned over...

I would rather see more YCs for penalty offences, eg every third penalty; no rentention of the line-out throw except once in the final 5 minutes (or similar to avoid cynical infringing); and no kicks at goal from beyond the 10m line.

Rugby would be more attractive if there were more tries scored from open play. Everyone of an age remembers THAT TRY (1973), but there is no THAT MAUL equivalent.